Taming The Wild Fundie

Part of my support for atheism and evolution, two not necessarily related topics, is to look for new youtube video on those topics. I enjoy learning. Also I look for ignorance and comment on it. I used to be a fundie minister and believed it at least for awhile whole heartedly. It intrigues me that I don't anymore and I reflect on the transition and what convinced me. I can relive some of that by debating fundies. What are the most powerful arguments? Well, recently I had a debate in one thread with three fundies and I might have awaken one, offended one and stunned one.

I first replied to cmpresents. His comment was

I'm telling you, evolutionist are exactly like communist, they want you to shut up and put up with their doctrines, and they don't want you asking questions. Imagine this, you are a child you start going to school and the evolutionist just expect you to believe everything they say, this is sad, truly sad. We can't let this people win, we must fight them every step of the way.

Well, I thought how stupid. Christians are always trying to apply their methodology to others, for example they say atheism is a religion, that deep down an atheist knows there is a god and as above they persecute people who don't believe like they do. They are quite self-centered and can't see they world in any other way. Perhaps that is the "belief gene". Belief in no god at least opens the door to there may be more than one way to look at something. If you have god on your side then there is only one way. My reply:

Pot calling the kettle black. You are talking about Christian history which was in power for 1500 years. A scientist will not burn you at the stake or torture you to believe what they say. I see significantly more benefits from science than ever was produced by Christianity. In fact science rewards you in this life. You only get "the" reward by Christianity after you die. LOL

Then the dopiness flows out:

Christians, did not burn anyone at the stake, catholics did, religious fanatics. Show me anywhere in the gospels where Jesus taught his disciples to go burn anyone or kill anyone. Your argument is flawed, so don't repeat it, or use it anymore, burn it. Science is fine as long as long as it doesn't teach ppl that there is no God and that we evolved from monkey's. Science subliminally teaches that there is no God, so don't be a hypocrite.

Lots of ignorance to comment on.

Ah. the old no true Scotsman fallacy. You don't believe the God of the old testament was Jesus? Who was he then? You logic is flawed as you do not accept the inspiration of the entire book but pick and choose. I am not the hypocrite, but you are. Jesus taught of everlasting hell and mind control. He was far worse the the OT god. And you do not understand science. IT DOES NOT TEACH HUMANS EVOLVED FROM MONKEYS. You fail on Christianity & Science. Go Learn both.

Now he is getting impatient with me. That is generally a good sign he is on the run. He has everything figured out and I am unworthy of his notice.

Jesus is not God, but the son/spirit/will of God. Jesus never taught of hell, that is your interpretation or the one you baught from religion. Yes it does, science teaches that we evolved from monkeys, don't be so anal, monkeys, apes, ape like men, the same shit, no matter how you phrase it, science teaches that we evolved from some none-human primate or what ever the hell you want to call it, so stop being a child, yoiu are anyoing me.

Patience is a good virtue in debate. Points are generally won that way.

You don't like to learn it appears. Where in the heck do you get your info about Jesus or do you just make it up as you go?
Mark 9:47-48 Jesus talking to his disciples
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Each gospel quotes Jesus regarding hell. It was one of his key topics. Will post more text.

I posted more texts. Now his next reply really baffles me. He must be so flustered he doesn't even realize I just quoted Jesus.

If you find the word hell in the bible I'll stop being a christian.

I reply

You wrote:"If you find the word hell in the bible I'll stop being a christian."
Mark 9:47-48 Jesus talking to his disciples
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into HELL, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
So are you no longer a Christian now and be true to your word?

How interesting that this guy didn't know his bible. This is the first mistake I made when I was a Christian, I read the bible and I read it a lot. The more you read it the more issues you see. The pastor will tell you that it is the sin inside you and you must resist. Step 1 is to hand over your brain which is the best gift humans have been given. cmpresents never replied after that. Perhaps he is true to his word and gave up Christianity.

About a week later a guy named SelfPromoting reads my thread and has to comment on it.

"Jesus taught of everlasting hell and mind control. He was far worse the the OT god." And what if controlling your mind to not think sinful thoughts actually made you feel better, and set you free to a large degree? Would he be such a bad guy then, or more like a doctor? If you have an ulcer and the doctor says, 'quit drinking beer', is he a bad guy controlling your mind? Or is he just giving you great advice?

If the creator of a world tells you in what way you can live free and happy in His creation, and in what way you will end up destroying his creation. (Which includes you) and you do the opposite of what he says, is that true freedom? He was kind enough to give you the freedom (because love is freedom) but it doesn't mean it was wise to go against his advice. Is it mind control then to follow God's own instructions, the creator OF the mind, for giving you a healthy one? A healthy mind?

Then one more guy, clawedification, jumps in and is pissed at me but unintentionally replies to SelfPromoting. He calls him an idiot. SelfPromoting tries to straighten clawedification out saying look dude you are arguing with the wrong guy and maybe you should give up calling people idiots. But clawedificaion is rabid for a while until a wee bit of light comes in.

Sorry if that is true im typing a million miles an hour as it is my responsibility to be as truthful as i can so should all the sciences.The fact remains either way evolution is based on assumptions and nothing more,all the evidence can really do is point to similarity's in all living things.

I need to correct this so I reply

the theory of evolution is based on thousands of facts and scientific experiments.

SelfPromoting turns his attention back to me.

See, if Jesus is right, and you are wrong, you are the one hurting people, not Jesus, who tells people rightfully, how to use their minds, which he created, to the maximum benefit. If Jesus is good, then your advice against Him, is evil. You can try and make that argument, that you are more right than Jesus, but good luck. His Words have lasted several thousand years and yours will die when Youtube gets flushed out. Do you think he was wrong? How come? I challenge you.

I hit back

I am hurting people. LOL. Jesus was just shaming people just like all the religious nuts do. Committing adultery and noticing a beautiful woman is the same thing? That is dumb. He is saying you might as well rape them cuz your going to hell anyway. Bad morality. He taught self mutilation. Rip your eye out, cut off your offending hand. It is primitive spooky thinking. More have been killed in the name of Jesus than can be imagined. You shall know them by their fruits. FAIL.

SelfPromoting replies

You think twisting His words is going to impress me? It's not worth replying to because I know you know better, your doing the work for me. Ask me a real question and maybe I'll answer.

With tongue in cheek I reply

Wow that was easy. You bailed already. You cannot defend even His plainly written words.
I accept your defeat.

He had his view of the Jesus and the Bible and is not open to anything else. He knows I think exactly like him. HA! I had to ask an appropriate question. He has a sanitized version of Jesus, not interested in the historical one. Another one down.

clawedification now takes me on having learned nothing from interaction with SelfPromotion

Wow!you are truly an idiot.firstly he speaks of this to get the thoughts out instead of in your mind.You dont have an understanding of the language of the time as most things are written like this to explain severity of deeds ,not self mutilation(idiot)Yes men do in fact say a lot of things,this simply does not make it true.If they are killing people you should know them by what they have done,(again,idiot)this is not a good argument.as you can see you're an idiot.

The language of the time? I enjoy watching early TV shows and movies. That was partly in my lifetime and some references there I don't get, but this guy gets what Jesus meant 2000 years ago. Thinking he is done with me I reply:

People who curse have low IQs & don't know how to articulate. Calling me an idiot 4 times demonstrates this. You waste time in ad hominem attacks and say nothing. Discounting it as an expression of the time you have not backed up, just a naked assertion. Jesus clearly says he will send nearly everyone to burn in hell except a few. Sounds deranged. He is not loving, He is simply cruel. Mind control, shame, self-mutilation in the name of God. Thats explains your attitude.

clawedification spends his time arguing with others and this one catches my eye

Really , you are under the impression that all doctors are evolutionist.I think we both know that this is false,on the account that i know many doctors that think it is nonsense. This guy has a point and to be upset by this is irrational and doesn't appeal to intelligence.What makes you think that this is all a big mistake blind and unguided process? This is another example of claims with no evidence.If all that is known about humans depended on evolution we would be in trouble.

No evidence? I cannot sit by

If you have gone to the doctor you have benefited from the theory of evolution. Antibiotics which has saved the lives of millions is based on how bacteria evolve. The hundreds of breeds of dogs, plants are an example of evolution. Speciation. You see it all around you & benefited from it. It is gradual change over time. Nothing more. Natural selection is adaptation to environmental changes. Most Christians accept it now. Read Jerry Coyne's book Why Evolution is True.

He continues

Evolution is not a necessity to medical science.I can know this by the fact that i choose a christian doctor that does not endorse the fictional theory.Sorry you dont understand the idea that it all comes from a similar source not a common ancestor. You only explain the information being lost not gained,no worry here lots of people get fooled into thinking this is true,but its simply fails.I know things adapt but they dont change this is fact through observation.

He chooses a Christian doctor so he can feel safe in his little fundie world. We really don't teach enough science. I have had to read Coyne's book over and over to get it. To argue with a fundie you have to really make it like 1st grade. I had to think back to what is elementary and what was convincing or at least gave me pause. So I throw a number of things at him seeing what might stick.

a christian doctor may not know about evolution, but his medicine is based on it. If species didn't evolve then we could kill permanently all adverse bacteria. If you go to the grocery store and buy fresh veggies & fruit you are seeing evolution. Did you know that brussels sprouts, broccoli, cabbage and cauliflower all come from the same hardly noticeable wild cabbage. Man using evolution developed all that.

Christianity has a long history of denying reality. They thought the world didn't move & the sun went around the earth. They persecuted those who said otherwise. Now they accept it matter of fact. They rejected the fossil record saying it was Satan who had put fossils in the ground or God did to test their faith. Then they changed again, but not really coming up with a consensus. They rejected evolution entirely, then accepted micro-ev, adaptation. All in due time....

Bio-geography is a big part of evolution fundie-Christians ignore. Just one of 1ks of examples:Believing in Noah & all animals came from Mt Ararat, How do they explain kangaroos are only found in Australia, no where else. No fossils anywhere but there. They cannot say god did more than one creation because of the bible. Oceanic Islands are homes to plants and animals found no where else. Lemurs only 1 place. This & 1ks of other facts are why most Christians accept evolution.

And it works. He thinks about it for a day and replies

Well there is a population bottle neck you have to deal with also. That is a very good piece of what i call evidence.When one is looking he may find many conflicts i admit this one is hard,but i will find out how this could be.I most likely will find skulls of kangaroos all over the world in the fossils.I am pretty sure this is some kind of deception as i will study this today.

Not sure why the "population bottle neck" would be an issue for an evolutionist, but he is no longer calling me an idiot. Implied apology accepted. :)
I figure one more statement is needed. I think it is important to know someone needs time to think about something and not pile on to distract that.

Beside kangaroos there are over 230 other marsupials that live in that area of the world & no where else. You got your work cut out. another ex: the Koala Bear.

Another thing that gave me pause as a fundie Christians was how could the universe only be 6k years old when we can see exploding stars that are much older. The closest is Supernova 1987A, 163k light years away. Sin came in 6k? No where in the Bible does it say the universe is 6k years old. The church just made it up.

Accepting scientific facts that Christianity originally stood against puts you in a very bright/brave crowd. Ex: Copernicus,Galileo,Newton,Linn aeus,Kepler,Buckland,Lyell,etc . To them God was not deceptive & preferred honesty studying his 2nd book, nature. Christians were the first to map out the fossil layers. They recognized the Church was not always on the side of truth. The deception today is done by fundies. The things they come up with to hold on to a bronze age view. WOW

The last paragraph was in response to his being impressed by authorities and thinking scientists were the deceptive ones. Christianity is a closed system. You couldn't speak truth if you are on the outside. No ghost is living inside you, the holy ghost that is.

And with that he has not replied back. I will never really know what happened after this interaction, but I feel good about engaging them, keeping it elementary. It took decades for me to drop the shackles of religion. It is a very strong web and quite hard to break. Tiny cracks in the facade is what happened to me and I think that is the best contribution I can make to other fundies. I feverously repaired them, but that was so much work. It is hard being a thinking Christian. It is like that joke where a guy happens upon someone banging there head against a wall. He asks him "Why are you doing that?". He replies "It feels so good when I stop".